YES!!!!!!!!!!

Just like everyone else, I feel anger towards anyone that doesn't share my opinion. I wish I could say that I always "take the high road", but it's really hard respecting someone else's point-of-view when they are being really nasty or snide. When I feel like slapping back though, I try to keep in mind that I don't know what experiences drive them. Also, on a practical side... I'm not going to change anyone's mind by being inflammatory, and I could turn away someone that may have shared interesting things back.

I have read articles, blogs and commentaries from around the world- conservative, liberal, you name it. We really are the same underneath it all. All sides spew the same hatred and ignorance, but I have also seen many who hold intelligent, tolerant debates with their opposites.Those are the discussions that have sometimes made me see things in a way I have never considered before. It has also influenced how I respond. I realized that I dismissed or felt such anger towards the hate-filled and/or "way-out-there" posts, that I completely missed what that person may have been trying to say. I know most people feel that way too, so I decided to try and not fall into that type of commenting.

Love, Love, Love.....Love, Love, Love......All you need is love....Nashua Mike.

No hatred sir, just a little bit of reasonability. However, you appear to have many problems with those who are religious and find them to be hateful; in turn, spewing disdain for them.

Bottom line is that gay marriage is unnecessary and many of us find the behavior and lifestyle distasteful. We are as entitled to our opinion as you are yours. That does not make us "hateful" or "paranoid". You seem to want it your way with no compromise.

Sorry, Mike, you need to take a long look in the mirror. I have read your abrupt posts and they are not at all "inclusive" nor do they embrace consensus.

Thank you!

autumn123,

Thank you for your post.

Please keep coming back to this forum, because we can use a lot more love and understanding, rather than the paranoia and hate that seems to be too prevalent on this board.

Cheers,
Mike

Did you ever think that it might not be about religion at all?

Could it be that seeing two women or two men kissing or acting affectionate might just be digusting to another person. From a standpoint of anatomy it makes no natural sense.

To allow homosexuals to rewrite our morals in their vision, tearing our society and societal order apart to service 3% of a dysfunctional population is just plain stupid.

Now a minute crowd of hateful protesters are taking it to court to challenge the constitutional rights of the majority.

Perverse, yes, in more ways than one!

without invoking morality or religion. At the end of the day, this is about civil rights. Not about going into the local catholic (or what have you) church and forcing them to 'marry you' or provide a certificate.

Maybe we should start forcing everyone religous beliefs on people, not just the christians. Here some things we can start with:

You can't eat pork, and you have to be circumcised like jews
You can't vote, smoke, drink, or celebrate religious or political holidays like jehovahs witnesses
You can't own dogs as pets or hunt for fun like Islam
You can't drink coffee or tea, look at porno, have premarital sex, watch rated r movies or dress immodestly like the Mormons
You can't take certain prescriptions or see certain doctors like scientologists

etc.. etc..

Everyone is religious. Everyone has his own personal or insitutional believe or practices. Someone is right and someone is wrong in this issue. Make sure that you have the right documnet to live and die by.

The answer is NO. Because those who would oppose the equal rights of Gay people and deny them the ability to Marry cannot argue without imposing their morality or religious views on the rest of us. Remove those arguments and there is no logical or sane argument to deny these people this right. But these people feel its their religious duty to tramp down other beliefs and to demonize anyone who does not follow their old book and God.

I guess you fail to notice that HIV is not solely contained to Gay people but there are millions of straight people who have it as well. Its the mentality of people like yourself who are responsible in part for this sickness continued existence.

I also would like to point out that as the majority straight people are far more "promiscuous" the the minority of Gay people. But anyways for every promiscuous gay person there are several that are responsible and committed to partners they might wish to MARRY and have a responsible life with.

Your ignorance is downright insulting. I am glad people like you are in the far minority and looked at backwards fools who a blinded by their hate. You make me sick to think you are part of the human race.

I'm curious, can the argument for or against be made without invocation of religion or morality?

you say "Gay people cause no harm to others by being gay and having gay sex." guess you have not heard of AIDS and HIV, not to mention the numerous other issues with Gays. Have you been to some of the park and rides in NH? seen all the guys sitting in thier cars waiting for someone like you to stop in? I bet you have and you probably have no issues with that either, BUT WE DO!! GAYS ARE SICK PEOPLE, they need help not support to spread their filth more...

Jesus was the ultimate, progressive revolutionary of all history. He challenged the religious orthodoxy of his day and was hated for it. The conservative religious and social structure that he defied- crucified him.

Yet, instead of practicing an authentic spirituality of compassion, like Jesus, most Christians today have decided to follow the example of the self-righteous and arrogant Pharisees who killed him. The irony is... they are doing so in His name.

To truly be a Christian (not just an empty title), is to follow what Jesus commands- that we love one another, love our neighbors, seek justice, forgive those who hurt us, pray for our persecutors, and be as compassionate as God. But at the center of his teaching is the most radical declaration ever uttered: love your enemies.

No, none of us have been able to consistently follow what Jesus commanded. His way is definitely not for "sissies". It is so much easier to spew hatred or to hurl that weapon or throw that punch. I'm not trying to say I'm more of a Christian than you are- I know all my weaknesses too well to go that route. What I am trying to say is to not use God or Jesus to pummel someone else who has a different view than yours. That was the Pharisees method.

I am anon 20:03. I speak to folks that are extremists on either side. So if you have nasty crappy things to say about my faith that applies to you. And if you are on the other side and are a close minded bigot that opposes someone's civil rights, that applies to you too.

Sex is a gift of the divine. It is ment to be enjoyed and shared responsibly. If sex where only for reproduction, it would only happen when females come into cycle. Guess what people have sex a lot out of cycle. I am not gonna even get into the biology of our body and that it is wired for pleasure from sex. The evidence is overwhelming. Its people like you that have made this gift a shameful act.

I have no issue with you calling me a mutant, sticks and stones and all that. Because I have no problem letting people be themselves as long as it does not cause harm to another person. Gay people cause no harm to others by being gay and having gay sex. Any argument otherwise is a fallacy and the product of a bigoted thinking.

I hope your children grow up with open eyes unlike you.

Is this the same God who allows children to be sexually abused and murdered? Is this the same God who allowed Officer Briggs to be shot in the head? Is this the same God that allows so much disgusting violence to go on in this world? Do you think God really cares who sleeps with who?

"I am not really religous and I DO NOT wish to see or have my children see same sex couples in public displays of affection."

How is a gay couple being married going to change this? Unmarried gay couples are still gay couples.

"You don't see same sex animals hooking up... "

- An estimated one-quarter of all black swans pairings are homosexual
- Studies have shown that 10 to 15 percent of female western gulls in some populations in the wild are lesbian
- Mallards have rates of male-male sexual activity that are unusually high for birds, in some cases, as high as 19% of all pairs in a population.
- Penguins have also been reported to be forming same-sex pairs.
- The Amazon River dolphin or boto has been reported to form up in bands of 3-5 individuals enjoying group sex. The groups usually comprise young males and sometimes one or two females. The males will sometimes also perform sex with tucuxi males, a small porpoise.
- Courtship, mounting, and full anal penetration between bulls has been noted to occur among American Bison.
- The bonobo, which has a matriarchal society (unusual amongst apes), is a fully bisexual species -- both males and females engage in heterosexual and homosexual behavior
- Bottlenose Dolphin males have been observed working in pairs or larger groups to follow and/or restrict the movement of a female for weeks at a time, waiting for her to become sexually receptive. The same pairs/groups have also been observed engaging in ardent sexual play with each other.
- African, as well as Asiatic male Elephants will engage in same-sex bonding and mounting.
- Giraffes have been reported to have anal intercourse with orgasm between males
- the Japanese Macaque, also known as the "snow monkey", same-sex relations are frequent
- Both male and female lions have been seen to interact homosexually. Male lions pair-bond for a number of days and initiate homosexual activity with affectionate nuzzling and caressing, leading to mounting and thrusting.
- European polecats Mustela putorius were found to engage homosexuality in non-sibling animals.
- both males and female Hyena's mount members of the same sex
- Male homosexuality has been inferred in several species of dragonflies

"As for the Bible - God is very clear on this issue, it is an abomination and we all know the price that was paid for such actions in the Old Testament... "

So what this all comes down to is, if you don't beleive in god it's ok to be gay? Or is it not ok because you're going to force your religous beliefs on others, nulling the whole point of freedom of religion?

Baseball is baseball; soccer is soccer. Calling baseball soccer doesn't make it so.

You don't see same sex animals hooking up... hmmmm something to be said about that free will we were granted.

Marriage is a union between Man and Woman. If you want to call it something call it a civil union then...

As for the Bible - God is very clear on this issue, it is an abomination and we all know the price that was paid for such actions in the Old Testament...

Go ahead - keep tempting fate!

POINT BY POINT BLACK DRUID

"I don't want children to see closed minded bigots like yourself."

Is it closed minded to explain to children that homosexuality is a dysfuncton? I think not.

"I am straight but I support equal treatment of all humans."

I would agree and we tolerate homosexuals but marriage is out of the question and absurd. It goes too far.

"Mutated Gene......If it wasn't for mutated genes would would still be swimming in the ocean."

Lame argument BD, humans are designed to reproduce, we are built that way, not to fund ways to pleasure others of the same sex.

"Be careful what you think is Mutation. You might find the mutant to be in fact yourself."

Or you Black Druid. The more you respond, the more it seems feasible that you should be careful as well.

How does a persons marriage run down your religion. How does a same sex couple make your religion any less?

What about running down my Faith? People who seek to define what I am allowed bless in the form of unions between two people.

If it was a civil issue then it should be a civil issue for all. No segregation! But people are seeking to makes the a issue of religion. They want their religion to define legal law and saying all other views are not valid.

I don't want children to see closed minded bigots like yourself.

I am straight but I support equal treatment of all humans.

Mutated Gene......If it wasn't for mutated genes would would still be swimming in the ocean.

Be careful what you think is Mutation. You might find the mutant to be in fact yourself.

I am not really religous and I DO NOT wish to see or have my children see same sex couples in public displays of affection. IT IS JUST WRONG, just becasue some gene mutated in some of you and you see it as your "right" to be treated like a married couple. it isnt. your not and you just need to deal with that fact, you can have a civil union but you ARE NOT MARRIED...

Where do I start? This is a country that was founded in a large part because folks wanted religious freedom to worship as they pleased. Due to these experiences the founding fathers tried to separate out church and state so the country could remain that way. What does a religious view of the version of marriage have to do with civil rights? And why must some folks denigrate religion in order to make the point about gay rights. I've got no problem with folks of the same sex wanted to make a legal contract together. I've got problems with them running down my faith. And I've got problems with those who profess to have faith but seem to think it is their place to make judgements. That is reserved for God. Not you.

You wrote: "At a those who bash me from behind anon postings. I tend to dismiss those posts off hand as it is useless to try and fight shadows."

Hello, I do not want to hide in the shadows behind the anonymous handle, My name is White Druid!

GOD really has you wound up Black Druid. Not so for me, White Druid, I follow a moral code that respects nature and natural order.

You wrote: "My religion does not hide behind a tax shelter. Myself and those like me pay full taxes on all property and earnings. Something I feel all churches should do."

Yours is not a religion, it is a superstitious pagan belief.

Sincerely.

White Druid
Exposing myself as requested from behind my my anonymous handle!

Cfujff 14 Ajax once again attempts to impress us with his cerebral double talk.

He quotes the following "psychiatrist":

Carl Gustav Jung (IPA: [ˈkarl ˈgʊstaf ˈjʊŋ]) (July 26, 1875 – June 6, 1961) was a Swiss psychiatrist, an influential thinker and the founder of analytical psychology.

Jung's approach to psychology has been influential in the field of depth psychology and in counter cultural movements across the globe. He emphasized understanding the psyche through exploring the worlds of dreams, art, mythology, world religion and philosophy. Although he was a theoretical psychologist and practicing clinician, much of his life's work was spent exploring other areas, including Eastern and Western philosophy, alchemy, astrology, sociology, as well as literature and the arts. His most notable ideas include the concept of psychological archetypes, the collective unconscious and synchronicity.

It is no wonder why Ajax quotes such an individual but the issue is the Crujff envisions himself as one on the same enlightened intellectual plane of existance.

We are all humans Ajax but we are also built quite differently. Anatomically, biologically and physiologically we are built to be heterosexual. Psychologically, you might consider homosexuality correct but it is strictly emotional.

""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.""

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion....."

By bowing to a religion and make laws based on their morals they are in fact makeing law that establishes and uphold a groups religious idea.

Your right there is no right to define marriage as it should be. But if certain people have their way there will be definition put in place to exclude citizens from equal benefits and protections under the law.

In fact it should be coded into out Constitution that Congress cannot make laws that respect one religion over another, that the government has no place in defining religion and religion has no place in defining our law oh wait

""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.""

Separation of church and state is a verbose statement for the words of the 1st amendment. Pull your head out of the sand and respect the constitution as it was written and stop trying to destroy it.

Mr. Hunt, the "separation of church and state" is not in the US Constitution. Jefferson was unable to persuade his colleagues of this, for a reason - they wanted to ENCOURAGE people of faith to participate in the marketplace of ideas, and PROTECT their right to do so.

BTW - last I checked, there is nothing about a "right" to define marriage for same-sex couples in the US Constitution.

Firstly and foremostly, we are all humans....human beings....we are all members of the human race....and therefore humanity. As members of humanity, one can be a humanist and adhere to a philosophy of humanism or be a humanitarian and practice humanitarianism, yet, by either variant, they both aspire to enhance and positively influence that which comprises our existence "here" on earth (regardless of religious beliefs). To be human by means of applying logic, reasoned thought and the exploitation of emotions sets the human race apart, as homosapiens, from merely being instinct driven animals, yet, to not consider the biological "variant" within the human race is to not be viewing the entire spectrum of the human condition, and thereby, the full scope of human existence itself....

Whether one, by a self-imposed "morality," agrees or disagrees with statistically "alternate" behavior (consensual, non-impositional and non-destructive by contrast as well) relative to a biological/social norm is irrelevant in respect to (within the parameters of a civil and lawful society) its non-ability to impact biological/social norms outside of its own sphere of influence. It most certainly does not impact your heterosexuality, nor does it impact my heterosexuality, or any other biologically inclined heterosexual as well. It does not impact the heterosexual 50% divorce rate nor does it impact birth rates, and at the estimated percentage of a given population, it reasonably does not pose a mortal threat to the propagation of a species (homosapiens) and thereby the human race. It does, however, impact the lives of those whom wish nothing other than to be treated equally under the law and to be equally availed of the rights by which to lead an existence of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness....a happiness that, by way of an imposed standard of implied "morality" by those of dissenting perspective, is denied those whom choose "individually" to live via an "alternate" standard, and in the process of denying such, is antithetical to the ethics of individualism, inclusion and the ability to, as equals, choose....

Live and Let Live....

"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." - Carl Gustav Jung....

While I believe in God, I don't think there is any room in our political system for religious influence of laws. Basing laws on specifics found in the Bible, Koran, Torah, or any other holy book is sure to bring division.

Look at the middle east. They have made war for thousands of years trying to base politics on religious beliefs.

I don't agree with same sex "marriage" but also don't think we can legislate against it.

What we need to do is take marriage out of legal status. Marriage needs to be a religous rite...period. All other matters defining the contract between two people as a legal matter should be called something else entirely. Marriage should be sacred and left as part of the religion being practiced not as part of our legal system.

Marriage has absolutely nothing to do with religion - Christian or otherwise. As any sociologist will tell you, the institution of marriage was developed thousands of years ago for one purpose: the legitimization of children. That's it. Period. End of story.

Marriage was not invented/developed for companionship. Men and women lived together for thousands of years prior to marriage. It's not about love. Marriage for love is a post Victorian age phenomenon and mostly in Western cultures. (Most of the world still practices arranged marriage.) Marriage was developed so that society would know who the father of a child was. The woman gets pregnant and gives birth....so everyone knows who the mother is. The father, however, may be unknown. Marriage answers this question for society. That is why (traditionally) the woman and the children end up taking the fathers last name. It allows you to "tell the players without a program." So, a union between 2 men or 2 women may be legal. It may result in a name change. It may result in sharing benefits. Heck, they can even adopt kids....but it's still not a marriage.

Personally, I don't care what 2 consenting adults do. I don't care if they have a union of sorts. I don't even care if they call it a "marriage." It doesn't make it so.
You can kick a balloon around a field.....but that doesn't make it a soccer ball!

The Christian Nation thing is a Myth. The founding of America was done to escape religious oppression running rampant in Europe. The Secular ideas of the southern colonies won out as our founding Ideas. The founding fathers are overwhelming Deist. believing in "Natures God". Yes most of them attended Christian Churches but that is be cause there was no other choice at the time. The ground work they laid let other religions grow here the western world. Religious ideas that had been oppressed for centuries.

Just a couple notes.

Christmas was Banned in many of the northern colonies because it was too pagan. The Secular Southern colonies won out and it became a national holiday much as we recognize today.

Halloween was banned also for same reasons but again secular Ideas one out.

Hard core Christian dogma rearing its head is product of a modern crusade. It is movement away from secular deist nation our founding fathers envisioned.

I'd just like to remind everyone that the people who created this country we called the United States were Christian. I've no idea of which christian branch and particular one is from. The meaning of the seperation of church and state has been so bastardized over the past 200 years. The original european settlers came here because of religous oppression. They wanted to make sure that the church was not dictating how the country was run. I do believe however that each of them in the Christian belief would not have stood up and allowed two people of the same sex to become married.
I personally don't care what you do in your own bedroom. However, I don't believe that we need to pass a law that allows you to get married either.
My own "old fashioned" view point.

We should all love one another because we are human beings. Funny, these people who claim that being gay isn't "right" are probably the same people who would've made blacks and whites use different bathrooms back in the day when it was "acceptable" to be a racist. You should all be ashamed of yourself hiding behind religion. God help if your children or their children are gay, the hell they will live because they're shamed into not being who they are because of you people. You all make me sick. You all spread hate. PERIOD.

In terms I can talk about in my religion it denotes more or less a rank or a position.

White Robes are for Initiates

Green are for Ovates (intermediates)

Blue are for Bards

Black In simplistic terms one who wears black has gone beyond the veil that separates the living and dead and returned. In doing this act part of themselves is always in two places. They becoming like the Ravens. They are part of two worlds. This is as simple as I can put it. There is *NO* evil involved. To imply that there is would be ignorant.

To those that keep thumping the bible. I have read the bible. Actually read it regularly. One must when it is used as a weapon against you. I have studied its history and content. I have studied the admission's of those historical figures that have altered the bible fit their agendas. I have studied when parts of the bible where written, many times several generations after the person that is said to have written it has died.

The divine needs no book, needs no people preaching, needs no churches built by man or anything of mans hands. The divine can talk to each person on a level they feel comfortable with and in a way they choose. To try and contain it is laughable for it is the divine and knows no bounds. The folly of man is to try and tame what cannot be tamed.

It is truly amazing how some so-called leaders, while hiding behind the robe
blame every one and everything for something that does not go their way. I am talking about homosexuality (a word not even used in the “No place for religion” article.) This was followed by the idea that (their kind) believes marriage is something other than the joining of a man and woman. It is quite obvious that if your parents (I hate to use the word parents in this instance) but have no other choice, were made up of male and male or female and female you wouldn’t be around today nor any time in the future. The words “a religious practice” other than there own, is alleged to be the reason that these people are so disgusted totally forgetting that the right to vote and results there of, is what moves mountains. If you enjoy being disgusted, think about Massachusetts where it does not allow its citizens to vote on this topic, which, by the way, has nothing to do with religion. I can’t think of any source for justification other than the Bible. Sounds like you have written your own version of the Word. If true, you will be easy meat for the Anti- Christ.

God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.

"Was your church one of ones that supported and paid for one of those anti-war demonstrations where I saw hundreds of people not only carrying anti-war signs but anti-Bush signs also? Something like this should take away your tax shelter."

This is a Free Speech issue, not Freedom of Religion, would you like to take away the freedom of speech from groups of people who you don't agree with?

The first amendment says the government has to treat all religions equally, and gives you the freedom to choose your religion, it does not give religions the freedom to do whatever they want, for examples look at the Mormons and Muslims who can't have multple wives even though though thier religions accept(ed) it, Rastafarians can't smoke up, etc.

"So you want to kick God out of our country even more that you have accomplished in the past?"

Yes, both of our first two presidents were extremely religous but knew better than to mix politics and religion

"No look up in you Bible of what God has to say about Gay Marriage and Abortion."

It doesn't say anything specifically about gay marriage or abortion. That being said I don't need your religion or your bible to know that murder is wrong whether it's an unborn baby or a little Iraqi girl or an adult soldier, but consenting adults can choose any relationship they want.

So what does "black" do to the definition? You say it has meaning but shed no light on what that is.

"Black is everything and it is nothing. It is unfathomable and yet we all know it well. It is a contradiction of itself." ??

It is truly amazing how some so-called leaders, while hiding behind the robe
blame every one and everything for something that does not go their way. I am talking about homosexuality (a word not even used in the “No place for religion” article.) This was followed by the idea that (their kind) believes ma