Bob,

I have never conversed with you before? But anyway.......

If the press and politicians bring up what executives make then it is fair to point out that the average auto worker makes an average of $72 per hour all in. Toyota is averaging $48 with a lucrative 401K retirement program with 100% match.

I was not complaining what my acquaintance earns but a technician should be able to get what they deserve, you are correct. I have working in union situations and most of the time the tail wags the dog. You can't get rid of dead wood, trouble makers, lazy workers. Workers come up to you as you struggle with day to day operations and say: "hey, I'm taking a break....union rules", when they could wait an extra five minutes for you to send them on a break. Workers threated union action if you reprimand them. The manpower and time it takes to discipline an employee is costly as you have to follow all sorts of detailed protocols. Unions also strike and that happens just about every year.

What surprises me the most is that union employees feel "entitled". They could care less about the company and survival of profitability. As long as they get their own piece of the pie, "to Hell with the company or anyone else". It is truly sickening and I have not even mentioned the (mob) style of leadership that unions have.....nasty folks for the most part

Minimum wage-Unrelated topic but I will comment on this. Minimum wage jobs are NOT for people raising a family or as work for permanent employees. If a person can not work their way out of a minimum wage job then there is an issue there.

Now, the minimum wage drives up the next tier of wages and so on and so on and so on.........I know no one in my immediate life (except my 16 year old) who would be in that category of employment (he makes $8.35 per hour) trying to live on minimum wage. We need a minimum wage but it is a political football, nothing more!

jbl1970 you are on to something. Check this out...jbl1970 suggests that us hard-working, tax-paying Americans speak where it has impact...with the power of our dollars. There was overwhelming opposition from taxpayers to the $750 billion bailout. Our representatives did not listen to us...they passed the bailout anyway. What were they thinking? That they know better than us how to spend our money? We're following this stuff too. Now is time to take action. Boycott EVERY company that the government uses our tax dollars to bailout. Think it wouldn't have an impact? Think again. When gas prices spiked we all cut back on driving...look at gas prices now. Pretty effective I'd say. Use your money to do business with and reward those companies with successful business plans, doing business the honest and fair way. And remember your local community bank was not involved in this subprime mess...just ask them. And then reward them with your business. Now get going. We have an economy to right.

Do not be scared into thinking that Ford, GM, and Chrysler are going to go under. They will survive, but their assembly operations in the US likely won't -- whether we provide a bailout or not.

And keep in mind that a huge percentage of the cars sold in the USA are made in the USA today -- not just by Ford, GM, and Chrysler -- but by Toyota , Honda, and many of the rest. They are built by American workers and they are being profitable. Why, you must ask? Because they are non-union operations and do not have the UAW hanging around their necks like large ship anchors.

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

This is one, we the people can undo the government on. If we are truly as ticked off with this as we act, and we are sick at the idea that these companies think they have some right to OUR money - undo it, and undo them. Boycott ALL bailout companies.

Buying a car? Buy Toyota.
Citi cards or bank acctounts? CLOSE THE ACCOUNT
Insurance? Theres better than AIG …

Get the point yet? Its time to send two messages, first to the companies: thats all of our money you will ever get. Then, to the government: When we the people say they dont get our money, they DONT - now they DO fail, now they die.

It's not like GM, Ford, and Chrysler are exclusive to the US.

Chrysler has plants in Austria, China, Egypt, Germany, Taiwan and Venezuela, and Mexico

Ford has plants in Thailand, Romania, Portugal, Spain, Brazil, Mexico, Australia, England, Venezuela, Germany, Canada, India, Taiwan, Malaysia, South Africa, Philippines, Russia, Turkey, Belgium, Vietnam, Japan, China, Argentina, New Zealand, Sweden, and Netherlands.

GM has factories in Egypt, Belgium, Chile, Portugal, Spain, France, Germany, Colombia, Canada, South Korea, Australia, UK, Japan, Poland, Vietnam, Ecuador, New Zealand, Thailand, Mexico, Brazil, Russia, South Africa, Sweden, Italy, Venezuela

Have they tried asking any of these countries for bailout money? I doubt it, and I doubt if they did, they'd get anything.

While the US Big 3 are sending jobs and factories overseas (for example GM has closed 7 US plants and opened 3 overseas since 2005) the Japanese Big 3 Honda, Toyota, and Nissan are opening new factories here in the US.

Check out this article on Shell's site. Back in 2006, there were vehicles that could get...hold your breath...10,000+ MPG!

http://www.shell.com/home/content/ferrari-en/news_features/2006_ecomarat....

The Big 3 seem proud when they achieve 30 MPG and they always fight legislation to increase fuel efficiency standards. Perhaps 10,000+ MPG would be difficult to achieve on general vehicles, but something MUCH better than 30 MPG should doable.

One thing is for sure: We've been screwed out of money for gas for years, because of these companies resisting fuel efficiency improvements.

Hear, hear, Donna! Those high salaried exec's certainly haven't earned their keep, have they? If they'd seen the writing on the wall years ago, they wouldn't be in this current deplorable financial mess. They got themselves into it, not us, or the general state of the economy either, so why should we have to pay for their poor decision making and bad investments?
So I say just forget about the "stipulations", such as "strict limits", "committments", or "concessions", that are being suggested by all of the elected officials concerning all the negotiations that are merely taking up their time needlessly right now. Just say NO to them, plain and simple, and get on with the other more important considerations facing our country.

I've had this debate with you b.b.efore. I've heard that what ever CEOs make is not any of my business. Probably so for union workers, too, although I greatly doubt starting wage is $70 per hour. A lot of these manufacturing jobs takes a technicians' education to operate computerized equipment. You can get a BA and be in marketing. You can't blame a union workers for bargaining as much as they get for their labor - a commodity just like anything else. It's not class envy, it's capitalism. Sure, tactics can be rough, but so is corporate spying, union busting, monopolies, lobbying for favorable contracts because you know Vice President Cheney and the rich on the board of directors voting for obscene compensation for CEOs who are on the board of directors that repay the favor. Instead of class envy disclaimers why don't we try for class fairness.

I saw where the auto plant for one of the foreign auto makers in the U.S. had a non-maintenance plant shut down (over production, bad economy or something) and they didn't lay off! They put their workers to work at full pay doing civic projects in the communities. They treat their workers decently without them being unionized. That would be un-American for the U.S. industrialists. Unions serve as a check and balance to that kind greed, otherwise they would still be working for two dollars a day like in some deregulated, un-unionized countries. Isn't that why we have to legislate a minimum wage so people can afford basic needs to live, and not have to work twelve hour days for six days a week?

Gee Wiz George, end of discussion?

And why? Because that's what smug, wasteful, irresponsible American slobs wanted to drive, that's why! The public shoulders a good part of the blame for the Big Three's woes. The 70's Oil Crisis taught us nothing.

Electric vehicles are not feasible at this time. There are so many challenges.

The average range is 100 miles and the average cost to recharge one is more expensive than to fuel a gas vehicle on a MPG basis.

The batteries are an environment hazard on disposal. There is no fuel and are not alternatives to the energy that oil provides today.

GM, Chrysler and Ford have not been innovative, not tried to improve fuel economy and build crappy cars. The unions are corrupt and have bred lazy workers. The executives make too much money. They build palaces as headquarters. Those are the reasons why the "Big Three" are in trouble.

We watched the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car". GM and others had electric cars on the roads of California earlier in the decade. The people loved them and there was a demand for them, but the auto manufactures pulled them and destroyed them. They could make more money from Hummers and other SUVs, and the government offered tax breaks to buy the gas guzzlers. So between poor management decisions, government collusion, and oil companies, the electric car died.

I bet GM wishes it was geared to make these vehicles today! If they were mass producing them, they'd be making money and not need a government bailout.

Bob,

There is little doubt that the executives from the Big Three provided a disgusting display of hypocrisy last week.

However, it is not just the exec's who are guilty in this case. Mob ties to the UAW, Teamsters and IBEW are well known. Unions, in principle are shake down artists and their membership pays a premium for the representation that they provide.

In the beginning, union workers organized and it was a good thing. Everyone wants fairness. Over the years, as I am sure you can recall, they would threaten strikes every year or two and enhanced their position and compensation. The concessions the auto manufacturers made are coming home to roost. Perhaps, if they stood up to the unions years ago, it would have been painful but they would not be bankrupt today.

The problem is deeper, in the debate and beyond. Engineering of American cars is poor; terrible in fact. If you look at Honda's double wishbone suspension and compare it to a GM or Chrysler, you will see the reason why these companies are not able to compete. The same goes for transmissions, design and fit and finish. Yes, the American auto engineers have failed. I happen to know one and his reasoning is this: "we were just too damned proud to copy the Japanese". He also told me: "we knew their design and cars were better after awhile but we thought we could build a better car with our design".

You omitted Kentucky, where Toyota has facilities as well but for these three companies to sit on their hands while Toyota or Honda or Nissan built plants here and NOT see the importance of building a car that someone wants and would be able to compete is the primary reason for not bailing them out.

I do not agree with you that if management valued their workers that there would be no need for unions. Unions are self perpetuating and recent efforts on stifling secret ballots are so insidious that they are not going away anytime soon, regardless of how great companies treat their employees.

A bit about fairness and a point that Barney Frank made this week. Frank complained that there is too much of a disparity between white collar workers and blue collar workers. Not so in Detroit. A friend who is a marketing manager for GM makes far less than $70 per hour, all in. In fact, including benefits it is about $40.

This "greed" agenda that so many use to create class envy is tearing this country apart. Let's look at the compensation argument for a minute though. A person spends 6 years in college to get a MBA. They are asked to be innovative, create ideas that will make a company more prosperous and help it grow to create jobs for others. They spend salaried hours, often more than 60+ per week to do this. Should they not be paid the same as a person who is twisting a wire or placing a bolt on a widget?

I would agree that $40 million for a CEO is excessive but without executive pay there would be no reason for people to take that leadership role and want to excel. Hence, there would be no innovation. The auto industry took it too far the other way. With too much compensation and no consequences there is no innovation.

The executives you speak of are not impacting the cost of a car as many are only low six figures. It IS the union labor that is affecting that cost. However, both are to blame as the executives should set the example and settle for much less and lead in that way rather than cling to excessive compensation.

Yes, we should invest in the future of the auto industry and I have no issue with investing in foreign companies manufacturing cars on our soil. If we do bail out the companies, we should hire, as consultants, execs from Toyota and Honda and Nissan to consult and show domestic manufacturers how to build a car that will compete.

The brain trust of our engineers reflects the decline in our educational system and technological edge that is evaporating before our very eyes.

Get a bailout and a bonus.

There will still be automobile making factories in the U.S.; just in Texas and Tennessee, instead of Detroit, making Nissans and Toyotos instead of Fords and Chevies.

If management valued their workers, there would not be a need for unions, as with those Nissan and Toyota plants.

Management always take care of themselves first and beyond the limit. (I'm waiting for someone to tell me that "it's none of my business what the filthy rich make" - like it's none of our business what union workers make?)

In this case, Capitalism = Greed = Failure, although Detroit Auto Makers and Lobbyists successfully fought environmental and conservational legislation to raise gas milage.

It's not just the union pensions and wages that added to the cost of buying a new domestic car, Detroit auto industry executives make seven times more that their counterparts of Nissan and Toyota.

I would rather the U.S. invest that $25 billion in Nissan and Toyota and own a piece of the new domestic auto industry.

No!
And no to the unions!!
No bailout for the rich.
No bailout for those who abuse.
No more!