New Hampshire Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson, an outspoken, international gay rights leader, has been asked to give a prayer at one of President-elect Barack Obama's first inauguration events at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C.
The announcement follows weeks of criticism from Robinson and gay-rights groups over Obama's decision to tap the Rev. Rick Warren, who's likened committed gay relationships to incest and polygamy, to pray on inauguration day.
Robinson, an early Obama supporter, said last month the choice of Warren left him feeling as if he'd been slapped in the face. In a telephone interview this weekend, Robinson, of Weare, said he doesn't believe Obama has included him in response to the Warren criticism. But he said his inclusion won't go unnoticed by the gay and lesbian community.
"It's important for any minority to see themselves represented in some way," Robinson said. "Whether it be a racial minority, an ethnic minority or, in our case, a sexual minority. Just seeing someone like you up front matters."
Warren, author and high-profile pastor of a California mega-church, will still give the invocation at the Jan. 20 inauguration, shortly before Obama delivers his much-anticipated inaugural address. Robinson will share his invocation prayer Sunday afternoon on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial during an inaugural kick-off event.
Obama and Vice President-elect Joe Biden will be there, and Obama is expected to speak, Robinson said. The event will be open to the public and run on HBO. Robinson doesn't yet know what he'll say, but he knows he won't use a Bible.
"While that is a holy and sacred text to me, it is not for many Americans," Robinson said. "I will be careful not to be especially Christian in my prayer. This is a prayer for the whole nation."
Robinson said the Obama team has given him no direction on what to include in his remarks.
Clark Stevens, spokesman for the inaugural committee, said he could not disclose the rest of Sunday's program because it was still being finalized. He said the committee extended the invite to Robinson because Robinson had offered his advice to Obama during the campaign and because of his church work.
"Bishop Robinson is one of our nation's most prominent religious leaders," Stevens said.
When asked whether Robinson was included to calm the Warren complaints, Stevens repeated himself. "(Robinson's) an important figure in the religious community," he said. "We are excited that he will be involved."
At home, Robinson was long known foremost as a gifted and devoted priest. He gained international attention after New Hampshire Episcopalians made him their bishop and, as a result, the worldwide church's first openly gay bishop.
His election has divided the church here and abroad. Despite his insistence that he wants to be "the good bishop, not the gay bishop," Robinson has sought out a high-profile role as a gay rights activist while also leading his congregations here.
He signed on to the Obama campaign early during the New Hampshire primary, saying he liked Obama's commitment to uniting people of different viewpoints and lifestyles. When Obama invited Warren, who has campaigned against gay marriage in California, to give the invocation inauguration day, Robinson shared his disappointment.
"I actually have a lot of respect for Rick Warren, amongst evangelicals," Robinson told Beliefnet.com in late December. "He's taken a hit for his compassionate response to AIDS, his commitment to alleviating poverty. He's done some good things. The difficult thing is that he's said, and continues to affirm, some horrendous things about homosexuality."
In other interviews, Robinson said Warren deserved "to be at the table" but not in such a prominent way. And he wasn't alone. Gay rights groups chimed in with their own complaints. (next page »)
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Comments
PARK QUEEN
By Anonymous - 01/17/2009 - 10:28 pmGene needs to get back in his expensive car and out of the woods of pickle park. his habit of picking up men. would appear to me against the so called marriage to his lover. how can he hold everyone else to a standard when he cant maintain one of his own. Its all about his fame not God or his church. He is a DISCRACE to the gay community and is doing more harm then good.
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Its funny...
By Blackdruid - 01/15/2009 - 9:55 pmBut bible thumpers focus on on verse yet ignore so many others
Leviticus
19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
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video
By Anonymous - 01/15/2009 - 5:55 pmWhat a powerful video. Thanks for posting it. Kind of makes this whole blog seem trivial. We have feedoms in this country that are great. Meanwhile children are starving to death. Can we take our energies and enthusiasm and focus it someplace where it will help. Lets agree to disagree on something that is so close to everyones heart. We have all expressed out opinions. Now it is just getting nasty on both sides. Bo back to your corners and lets do something productive. No meanest intended at all. I hope everyone has a warm night!
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" Chimp read the discussion guidelines! Monitor do you enforce
By Chimp Refuge - 01/15/2009 - 4:42 pmYes, I did. And I haven't violated any of them. Meanwhile, there are people freely referring to their fellow citizens as "abominations" and referencing passages in a religious mythbook that says people like Gene Robinson should be KILLED.
Quit whining, or at least be consistent. If you can't do that, then go ahead and chalk up the fact that I can post in ways you personally don't like, and probably can't understand, to a Grand Liberal Pro-Gay Anti-God Conspiracy.
Anonymous posters like you can't be taken seriously anyway. So keep punching the "Report Violation" button in vain.
http://www.scienceblogs.com/bushwells
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defective Gene is an ABOMINATION
By Anonymous - 01/15/2009 - 3:30 pmPerhaps this is why Gene doesn't like the Bible
Leviticus 20:13 KJV
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
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ENOUGH!
By Anonymous - 01/15/2009 - 2:07 pmI have been making posts and trying to change minds. Spinning my wheels.
We will never change anyones minds through this forum. No matter how many posts. But what we can do is in the name of humanity or Christianianty is join together and fight a real cause. Gay, straight, bi, Christian, agnostic or purple stripped! Please go to and watch this youtube clip. This is what is going on in the world why good people are sitting around yelling at each other through our fingers. If you are a Christian-regardless of your stand on same sex relationships, or if you are the hardest of non-religion (for lack of a better word-sorry) this is something we can reach across the isle to help. Put aside your hate towards each other and join me in a battle we can WIN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v7ZQUzr0yo
Please....please....please!!!!!
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Robinson
By Anonymous - 01/15/2009 - 11:43 amGene is all about himself, not HIM, so true. . .a hateful man, an arrogant creature
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Truth!
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/15/2009 - 11:37 amDieu d'
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eugene robinson
By Anonymous - 01/15/2009 - 11:37 amRobinson is an abomination. He won't use a Bible, huh? What the hell kind of minister is he? His church should be ashamed of making him their leader. I would be leaving that place.Also, Robinson attacked Obama's choice of Warren and said Warren prays to a different God than he does. What a loser! Warren on the other hand praised Obama for including jerks like Robinson! Guess who is the better man and human being!
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Selt. drinker...
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/15/2009 - 11:28 amThere are a lot of wolves in sheep's clothing. Beware.
You can not say that Billy Graham, Chuck Smith or John the Baptist are wolves.
Time will always tell!
Many of these people "use god" for their own gain. Clearly!
Apples & Oranges.
They shall be know by their fruit.
If grape vines produce grapes, that is a known quantity.
If there is no fruit, they are yanked.
Done!
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Beck...
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/15/2009 - 11:18 amYou are a bit slow on the uptake.... I know that Falwell "used god" as a money pit~ He could not wait to get his hands on the Jim Baker Monopoly back in the day. He was twitching with anticipation. Remember? That is what I found amusing. Not that he mislead many people, or bilked them. Sad actions.
God is Always in control!
As for Jerry and his "prayers" again, his agenda. People pray for all kinds of things. Mostly for their own personal gain. Not what is Just.
God answers prayer. But, sometimes, you will get a NO! Another answer that so many people do not want. nor will they give today.
Come on Beck. I expect more from you.
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chimp
By Anonymous - 01/14/2009 - 10:28 pmChimp read the discussion guidelines! Monitor do you enforce your own guidelines?
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Can't believe this hasn't come up yet...
By seltzer-drinker - 01/14/2009 - 10:02 pmThanks all, for this entertaining thread! A few comments..
<p>
1) How come nobody has mentioned Ted Haggard yet? A God-fearing man, leader of the flock, gay man. The loudest homobigots are usually the ones with the most fragile sense of personal sexuality. (Look at Larry Craig, Roy Cohn, and don't forget J. Edgar Hoover.)
<p>
2) I once took a tour of the Palace of the Popes in Avignon. (That's in southern France, for some of the geographically challenged.) The tour guide pointed out the Pope's torture chambers, and his 2 harems. The male and the female harem. Those wacky infallible God-fearing definers of morality really knew how to have a good time!
<p>
3) If it's a sin for a guy to chew on another guy's cigar, wouldn't it follow that it the act is sinful? OK, so all you ultra-religious guys out there better just give up on that special kind of nookie you crave from your wives, 'cause that's probably a sin too. Oh yeah, and since it's ridiculously sinful for a guy to bring a male to sexual climax, doesn't that mean it's sinful to take one off the wrist, as the Brit's would say? Well, as Woody Allen said, there goes your favorite hobby.
<p>
In fact, taken to the extreme, this line of argument points out that all sex is sinful except for "tab-a into slot-b" type sex. So everyone, let's give up the sexual revolution! Hallelujah! -- just one thing -- why DID God give us libidos anyway?
<p>
4) A conversation between two colleagues: A says to B, "Do you believe in God?" B doesn't blink, but looks back and says, "Define God." Think about it. My tradition says that God is "unknowable". I take that no matter what God may be, we can't get at God by personifying him/her/it into some gray-bearded neo-con who spends his time being capricious and spiteful by placing all sorts of religions, races, and sexual beings out there only so that he can get his rocks off sitting in judgment of these self-same imperfects, and tossing them all off to the Satan guy for fun.
<p>
It is for each of us to define God for ourselves. Huh? Isn't that hubris? God is "unknowable" and therefore no one can know if their interpretation of God is correct or not. If someone says, "I know that God is x, y, or z", he is speaking heresy because how can he know the unknowable?
<p>
And that's what it's all about folks -- allowing us all to have our own understanding of and relationship to God as we, personally, see fit, while allowing others to have theirs.
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Re; Beck
By mbeck - 01/14/2009 - 7:36 pmI know someone who prayed for 35 years for something to happen..................and then it did!
Hallelujah! (it was GOING to happen sooner or later).
Not only is Falwell dead in spite of his prayer, he was also a hypocrite...........and I have that straight from the mouth from someone in the Falwell family. Do you REALLY think it was okay for him to prey on the people so devoted to him? Begging them for money? The ones who could least afford it? And you GIGGLE about this kind of stuff?
My point is - you are so over your head in here trying to argue with the chimp and fuocco that it makes ME laugh.
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"debating style"
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/14/2009 - 7:16 pmFuoco. I have not been challenged as of yet to a "debate"
This is simply raw verbiages be tossed about.
A bit of a nonsensical, words flying about, camouflage of what you really still seem to wonder what you might decide it is that you believe in?
I am curious?
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Fuoco?
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/14/2009 - 7:03 pmOkay, it seems that the rivers are not so deep for you at this juncture.
We can shallow it up a bit for you then!
The errors are manifold. It's nonsensical say you.
put it in a "corral" as you say.
Okay, here comes a softball pitch (What is your fact pointed creed for your faith?)
Frank was a very, very eccentric man. No doubt.
I am not sensing this from you~
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A Fact.
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/14/2009 - 6:52 pmPeople have this thought that God is a mean, nasty malicious hater.
Contraire. Antithesis!
God Is All Knowing And Loving.
He hates no one. No more a gay person, leper, drunk, rapist, murderer, divorcee, animal monger OR The pot smokin hamma on Newfound lake with a fishn pole that canoed his way to the island just ahead.
These are the fabrications of people. Myths. Untruths. That's where your folk lore stories are concocted.
We never first loved God. Never! None of us.
God First Loved Us. Only by the Grace of God and the softening of our Hearts did we come to Love God.
Truth!!! Fact!!!
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Try Again, This Time Without the Hash Pipe
By Il Fuoco - 01/14/2009 - 6:38 pmNorman said: "In regards to your faith that you subscribe too~Can you say OR tell yourself Touché`
Fuoco, whats your story?"
Norman, how the heck am I supposed to answer this? The errors are manifold. It's nonsensical. I am reminded of a quote from Frank Zappa:
"You can even read your own f***ing language. You can't read it, you can't write it."
I think FZ had you in mind.
And to be charitable, your "debating style" can only be likened to trying to converse with a homeless person on a bender. I mean, there's lot's of words flying about, but perhaps you could corral them together in some semblance of coherent thought.
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Facts?
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/14/2009 - 6:34 pmBy the Way Beck, not one person has presented a singular "fact" fiction!
I think our earlier freind was Speaking about Jesus(2000 yrs)
God On the Other hand has been 888. (for you math buffs)
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Beck...
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/14/2009 - 6:29 pmI hear where Fuoco was coming from, If you live in the land of HRpuffnstuff~What seems clear to one, makes absolute nonsense to another. People need to know when to leave the red dragon alone.
So what is your point Beck?
We all know that Falwell had his own bent. I would see him on some news program and he could cause me to giggle a bit. He was on a different tangent so to speak.
And Yes, Prayer works! Thank You Jesus! I have had first hand experience. Second & Third.
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Re; Really
By mbeck - 01/14/2009 - 6:08 pmDo you think God was first thought of 2000 years ago? You mean, all those other god and goddesses by other religions hadn't been around? Oh you mean YOUR God. Sorry.
And why is the big bang theory any more unbelievable than a Virgin Birth and a man coming back to life after 3 days?
And do you think in this wide wide universe that we are so special to be the only planet with life forms?
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Norman
By mbeck - 01/14/2009 - 5:53 pmYou didn't even understand what Fuocco was trying to say with his post. You came back laughing about Jerry Falwell. Isn't it hard to argue with people who present you with facts?
Speaking of Jerry - poor Jerry - he prayed to God to give him two more years a couple months before he died because he hadn't completed his mission.
Prayer works, doesn't it?
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Hey Chimp, Fuoco(the band of brothers) LOL.....
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/14/2009 - 5:17 pmIn regards to your faith that you subscribe too~Can you say OR tell yourself Touch
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"I didn't choose to be straight."
By Chimp Refuge - 01/14/2009 - 5:08 pmExactly. And you didn't choose to be male or female, whichever you are. You also didn't choose to be a dimwit with nonsensical ideas about "the natural order of things." One might even argue you don't really choose to put your ignorance on display, but that some part of your sad constitution compels you to do this.
You have to be a moron to think that someone would choose to be gay in a culture filled with people like you. What is truly "unnatural" is to believe in deities of the sort Norman does in the face of worlds of evidence contradicting the idea, and to subsequently tout this stubborn irrationality as a veritable virtue. Then again, if one regards stupidity in the human population as the norm, ideas like his and yours aren't unnatural at al--merely shallow and primitive.
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Rigorous juxtapose...
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/14/2009 - 4:53 pmWell Gents, The wager have I ignored, No. No Quaaludes here.
Fuoco, you are charming.
Chimp, I am starting to get you. I even enjoy your writing~ I think we would even enjoy each others many facets of being. The Pats, The sox The C or B`s. Politics. Skiing, fishing. What have you. I am convinced now that you grew up much like I did. Catholic(Roman)
Not much warmth there. A mean and vengful god. No fun. I remember
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Hey Norman,
By Il Fuoco - 01/14/2009 - 4:33 pmThanks for completely ignoring the logical argument against Pascal's Wager. It shows just how little you have really thought about these things. Instead, all you give are the hand-wavings and smiling banalities of someone who sounds like they've taken too many anti-depressants.
I think Ungutu's gonna be a might bit upset with you.
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Choose
By Anonymous - 01/14/2009 - 4:32 pmI didn't choose to be straight. It is the way I was made in the natural order of things. It is the normal way for people to behave. Keep shouting your voice falls on deaf ears.
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Re: Theory
By Anonymous - 01/14/2009 - 4:15 pmAnd yet...............you don't believe that science has proven the theory of evolution, but that an unseen God exists that there's absolutely not one shred of proof for?
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I know you mean well, Norman, but you perfectly illiustate the b
By Chimp Refuge - 01/14/2009 - 3:57 pmof believing what you believe.
Here you are, simultaneously proposing that:
1) There exists a God who is good.
2) God hates it when people are gay, but creates them in such a way that it is assured that about 5% of the population turns out to be gay anyway.
3) This "loving" God, having set these people up to violate his rules, punishes them for all eternity for doing exactly what His own biological imperatives compel them to do.
At some point it is perfectly appropriate to label people exposed to this failed scheme "idiots" for continuing to subscribe to it. A loving deity would not stack the deck on purpose just to watch people screw up. God gives us healthy sexual and culinary appetites, but sex (even daydreaming about it) and overeating aren't just bad, they're SINS! Sure, sure....
All arguments about "free will" are worse than lame and childish excuses; they are categorical, cataclysmic failures. God is a not only not there, the whole idea is a sick, unruly farce. Be thankful, though, for this, not regretful; if the God you conceive of were real, he'd be a world-class jerk, bull, and sullen loser.
When did you "choose" to be straight, Norman? COme to think of it, when did you "choose" your other imperfections, like your plain thinking deficits? Is that really on you? See, it's easy to claim that traits you happen to not have been born with are "choices" and moreover that they are "evil" choices.
What IS painfully clear is that humans, imperfect dorks that we are, created gods in our own twisted image, and then purposely tried to forget cause and effect.
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Really
By Anonymous - 01/14/2009 - 3:47 pmReally. You can honestly say that in the great cosmic goo things lined up just perfectly that is caused this little bang. Really? I think you would have better luck throwing a pebble out of a plane over the dessert and then jumping down after it and finding it on the first try.
As hard as I try I can not comprehend that we came by accident. There is too much that would have to line up. Too much that would be a miracle in order for the big bang to happen. I just can't imagine it. It is too science fiction. Next there will be little green men that come down. So where did the little green men come from. Was there a bang that stared them as well?
I guess for 2000 years men and women were wrong about there being a God. Good thing we are so much smarter then them.
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fuoco ll
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/14/2009 - 3:20 pmYou are so close Fuoco, you should be near a clue~
God does want empathy, with a sincere heart.
God does want repentance with a sincere heart. That is IT!
That is what you would call a person ~after Gods own Heart~
Motivations and discovery is all good. God enjoys that about us.
But, like any good Father, He tenderly watches over us like you would your own child.
You teach them and let them know what is pleasing and what is not.
There is always a just and right way of things.
Why do people go before a judge, jury? than sentencing comes. what is the punishment?
A very easy to follow illustration, a smaller parallel to the greater workings of the broader laws of reciprocity.
God and his Wisdom at work here with us. This is school my friend. Full of quizzes.
The final exam will come with our life's end. Who will pass???
God Knows!
His Grace and Mercy allows us the time (80 years or so) to find out,to seek,learn,
Discover as you mentioned.
He made us in His own image. Gave us free will!!! "nothing tangible" you say?
Really. Choice is your, mine, ours! That is Tangible my friend!
Regards~
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Fuoco~
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/14/2009 - 2:51 pmFalwell, you made me grin with that one~
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Re: blah blah blah
By Anonymous - 01/14/2009 - 2:34 pmWho says you are one of the "good people of society"?
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Pascal's Wager: Still Old and Tired
By Il Fuoco - 01/14/2009 - 2:30 pmHey Norman, this is a variant of Pascal's Wager: "If I believe in God and He is real.... at the end of my life, I have gained Everything!
And if He were not, well than, I have not lost anything.
But, if one rejects that God is real and denies Him, and at the end of their lives they were to find out that God is Indeed real....they have Lost Everything and their lives too.
And if he was not real, as they have always believed, than they have not gained a thing."
Now Pascal was a heck of a mathematician, but he was also a product of his times. The logical problem with the argument is that it posits only two possibilities: 1. There is no god, 2. There is the god of the Bible.
See, here's the problem. Suppose the Hindus got it right. Or the Zoroastrians. Or some obscure tribe in a forest who pray to Ungutu, the creator of everything. I'm afraid that old Ungutu might be REALLY PISSED that you chose your god over him, and for that, you're going to spend eternity being nibbled by rats who look an awful lot like Jerry Falwell. Meanwhile, the atheists, well, Ungutu ain't exactly thrilled, but at least they didn't put another god before him, so at worst, they have to go to bed without supper. By believing as you do, in this scenario you're screwed. The trick, of course, is that each religion offers the same "evidence" that it alone offers the truth (meaning "nothing tangible") so there is no way for a dispassionate observer to determine which of these claims might be true. All the observer can say is that given the contradicting details of each religion, it is logical that at most only one could possibly be correct, and as each supporter believes with equal fervor that theirs is the chosen one, it is likely that they are all incorrect.
And finally, you are supposing that your god doesn't care about the motivations of individuals, only that they follow a set of rules blindly. Therefore, by your model, your god would accept a person who merely parroted what he was told in spite of not agreeing with it, while a person who was genuinely interested in discovering the true nature of the universe, and with an empathetic heart, would be cast into eternal damnation for expressing any manner of doubt.
You haven't described an all-loving god. You've described a cruel despot.
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blah blah blah
By Anonymous - 01/14/2009 - 1:19 pmEnough is enough. Homosexuality will never be in the main stream and accepted by good people of society.
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Thought to consider....
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/14/2009 - 12:45 pmIf I believe in God and He is real.... at the end of my life, I have gained Everything!
And if He were not, well than, I have not lost anything.
But, if one rejects that God is real and denies Him, and at the end of their lives they were to find out that God is Indeed real....they have Lost Everything and their lives too.
And if he was not real, as they have always believed, than they have not gained a thing.
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Just One~
By Norman Kreutzer - 01/14/2009 - 12:24 pmMy original response to this thread was regarding the bishop and his appointed prayer for obama.
Now, I am of a "multiplicity scriber" ~
No, I am just one person with one Value system, One philosophical belief.
It is not my intention to drudge up animosity toward anybody.
I will agree to disagree with others.(with Chimp & Anons.)
God Bless!
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"I took the easy way out and decided to believe in God" and...
By Chimp Refuge - 01/14/2009 - 11:50 am"All your arguments are too risky for me to believe."
EXACTLY. Thank you for admitting the two chief reasons why you and so many others lack "faith" in evolution: Intellectual laziness and fear.
"Wow. It takes a lot of faith to believe in evolution."
Wrong; it merely takes an objective assessment of the evidence. It's out there, but rather than see it as an opportunity to learn a few more interesting things about the world, you see it as a threat to your world view, for evolution puts the nail in the coffin of the Genesis creation stories (which are clearly fictional anyway) and therefore throws into question the rest of the Bible, including the resurrection myth. Time to grow up, kids; Jesus is dead, and one day you will be too. For good. Start living your one life well, and you can all start by letting go of your putrid attitudes about millions of your fellow Americans.
"Random acts. Good thing those monkeys changed."
Evolution by natural selection is not a random process, and humans' closest evolutionary cousins are apes, monkeys. Learn what it is you're rejecting thanks to your loopy "faith" before you start rambling.
"One question...if evolution is real why aren't monkey men still walking out of the woods?"
They are. We humans have over 98 percent of our DNA in common with chimpanzees. But your question, as posed, is as silly as saying, "My great-grandparents came from Italy, so why are there still Italians?"
"Why can't we see animals evolving?"
Why can't you see rivers changing course, trees growing, glaciers moving? It's this thing called time. Evolution acts over millions of years. But again, you can actually see some organisms evolving, among them bacteria (bacterial resistance to antibiotics is a direct consequence of evolution).
"As a mom I should have grown a few extra arms by now."
Again, you're railing against another absurd non-component of evolution. But now that you mention it, did you know that salamanders can grow back limbs? I notice that people of faith who believe in the power of prayer to effect medical miracles never seem to pray for REAL miracles, like an amputee growing back an arm. They only pray for stuff that can happen in non-miraculous ways. Are salamanders simply more devout than human Christians? Probably.
"I am not as faithful as you athiests."
You mean ATHEISTS? (Amazing how often y'all get this one wrong given that atheists are number one on your collective list of sworn enemies, except maybe for Muslims.) Of course you are more faithful (unless you're admitting here to questioning your faith--always a good thing, society wants its brainwashed minds back stat). It takes faith to believe in something for which there is no evidence. I don't require faith to not believe in your chosen celestial joker for the same reason I don't require faith to not believe in various other, equally silly gods or that there are little cheese-people living on the moon.
Sorry, but when you stipulate that something is "just there" simply because this idea was driven into your head when you were too young to consider far more plausible alternatives, you're going to get hammered in these "arguments." You can either avoid them, as most do; fight with people and wind up feeling angry or maybe bad about yourself; or, in a best-case scenario, start genuinely questioning the archaic nonsense you're carried around like maggoty baggage all your life and decide whether you have the drive and the capacity to break free of it and thus live in a world where you don't have to condemn people you really don't want to merely because a book or a guy wearing a backward collar says you should.
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Theory
By Anonymous - 01/14/2009 - 10:38 amFor something to become a theory it has to be proven. So until the big bang theory can be reproduced it is still just a theory.
A theory is developed only through the scientific method, meaning it is the final result of a series of rigorous processes. Note that a theory never becomes a law unless it was very narrow to begin with. Scientific laws must exist prior to the start of using the scientific method because, as stated earlier, laws are the foundation for all science
Development of a Simple Theory by the Scientific Method:
* Observation: Every swan I've ever seen is white.
* Hypothesis: All swans must be white.
* Test: A random sampling of swans from each continent where swans are indigenous produces only white swans.
* Publication: "My global research has indicated that swans are always white, wherever they are observed."
* Verification: Every swan any other scientist has ever observed in any country has always been white.
* Theory: All swans are white.
Prediction: The next swan I see will be white.
Note, however, that although the prediction is useful, the theory does not absolutely prove that the next swan I see will be white. Thus it is said to be falsifiable. If anyone ever saw a black swan, the theory would have to be tweaked or thrown out. (And yes, there are really black swans. This example was just to illustrate the point.)
Or at least that was the way it was when I was in HS but back then the world was only millions of years old...now it is billions. Can't science get their stuff together.
Hmmmm?
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Oh my
By Anonymous - 01/14/2009 - 10:14 amSo many posts to respond to.
First, for the gay male. Please believe that the majority of heterosexuals are with you in hoping you are able to live your life the way we should all be able to - without harrassment, discrimination and judgement.
For the person that says all it takes is faith -
Well, I was force-fed "faith" until I was 13. At that time, I started to want answers. That is the difference between you and me. I cannot believe in the unbelievable. If it works for you, fine. But don't carry your beliefs in thinking others have to be like you.
For the person who says Evolution is a silly concept. Wrong. It is scientific, and if you actually studied the concept, you would understand it.
As for the Chimp:
I plan on going out and building an idol in reverance to the "Flying Rigatoni Monster." Love it...........
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Thought I would chim in
By Anonymous - 01/14/2009 - 10:07 amWhen I was searching I found this web site. It helped a lot.
http://www.creationism.org/
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Question
By Anonymous - 01/14/2009 - 9:59 amFirst off, I did try to create an account but I'm guessing it emails your password to you? Not sure, but I can't check my personal email account from this computer. Anyway, for future reference, I believe my name will be east_coast_philly. With that said, I guess I just don't understand why everyone cares about this so much?! Do homosexual relationships really affect your way of life? We are all just hoping for the same basics out of life after all. I am a (fairly) young gay male who knows first hand how hard it is to grow up knowing that you are looked down on by a number of people for something that you have no control over. Please don't come back with, "you can you control/change it" because that's like telling me that I should have blonde hair instead of brown hair. Sure, I could change my hair color, but that wouldn't be the true me, it wouldn't be natural. I would always have brown hair, I'd just be hiding it to fit in. I went to college in the south and knew people whose parents would send them to groups to be "changed," trust me, it doesn't work because you can't just change genetics. Regardless, I don't want to get into that aspect of things in this post. To get back on point, when I was in highschool and college, I knew a few other gay guys/girls and I know how much of an emotional struggle we all endured because of the hurtful comments made by people around us. I'm not necessarily saying things were said directly to me because people didn't know that I was gay at the time and I did fit in, had a good group of friends, etc. but it still hurt me inside. I had a friend in college who committed suicide because of people like some of you posting here and I really want everyone to realize that your comments have real consequences, sometimes much more real and dramatic than you might ever realize. It's okay if you think I'm disgusting, but what good does it really do to say it out loud? I am sure there are things about you that I wouldn't like, but I would never post disrespectful comments about you in a public forum. In the end, God is the one who will judge, that's not your place, so for now please just live and let live. This world is full of different people with a variety of beliefs, values, interests, religious backgrounds, etc. and that's what makes it great. No one group is better than the next. You are no better than me and I am no better than you, we're just different. I remember a time when my mom said to me that I was lucky to have such an accepting family (which I do) and my response was, no, that's not luck, your family is supposed to accept and love you for who you are. Anyway, I am not trying to change anyones beliefs, I know that's probably not going to happen. My hope is just that before you post your next comment or make your next remark to someone in person that you think about how your words might hurt others.
Ajax, I love the Emerson quotes!
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Faith like a child
By Anonymous - 01/14/2009 - 8:43 amThe following is written from the heart..not with accusation. The bad thing about posts is you can't hear the voice. The tone isn't intended to be sharp.
We need to have faith like a child. Some of you smart guys missed the boat. You are way to educated for your own good. I wonder how many of you actually sat in a Bible believing church. Not one that thumps the Bible but a church where you can asks questions in a legit manner and get answers. Not just the quip "God loves you" (he does by the way) but honest to goodness answers. There are a lot of people who sit in church on Sunday and check their faith at the door on the way out. Without a doubt those kind of people are giving Christians a bad name. I would like to state that I am a teacher. I am an educated person. I live my faith out everyday of my life. I don't hate people who live a lifestyle I don't believe in. I pray so hard that God will open their eyes. It is not my job to condemn. It is my job to love and be friends with. I have 2 great guy friends who are both homosexuals. I was so sad to see them enter into that but I don't love them any less. The only thing I can do is love them and live my life side by side. They know I don't agree with them but we agree to disagree. It is a Christians job to be a light in a dark world. I am being a light to those around me (I hope). I am far from perfect. I read the posts and am sad to see so much hostility and name calling. Finger pointing and yelling. No one is going to change anyones minds through this forum. It has turned into a rant. With each side posting research and claiming to have the truth. For those who believe in God I would encourage you to prove the non-believers wrong. Be such a witness for Christ that those around you are amazed. I am not talking with words. I am talking in deed. Love your spouses like nothing else. Love your children. Live a responsible life with your money, your time, your habits. Men, lead your family to church. Men, step up and be the leaders in church you should be. Women, be the wife found in Proverbs 31. Care for your family. Take pride in being a woman of God. Stop the gossip. Stop cutting down you husbands to your gal pals. Teach your children to live real faith and not just go to church. Do family devo's! I think if we do all of the above (and I am talking about myself as well) those that are so anti God will have less of a bad taste in their mouth. I think they reason they are so bitter is they have come across too many Christians who claim to be one of God's but live like they want.
For those who don't believe in God don't take it on face value. Get into a good church and start asking the tough questions. Don't just believe a web page or what the science world tells you. Some things you can only see with your heart. Please don't attack me I am not trying to point my finger at your and tell you what to do. I am just asking you to ask the true children of faith the tough questions. I don't claim to have all the answers. I just know that God has touched my life and turned my whole world around. I would want nothing less than to have others share in the hope and the joy that I have. I respect that you have free will and an live anyway you want. This is just an issue that is so close to my heart. It is not about homosexuality or any other issue. Sin is sin. Evil is evil. What a nicer world it would be if each one of us loved our neighbor as ourselves. If each one of us put others first. Even if it is not in the name of Christ. Just in the name of humanity. We don't have to agree but we have to get along and live together.
"Preach the gospel always, if necessary use words." St. Francis of Assisi
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Faith
By Anonymous - 01/14/2009 - 8:14 amWow. It takes a lot of faith to believe in evolution. Random acts. Good thing those monkeys changed.
One question...if evolution is real why aren't monkey men still walking out of the woods? Why can't we see animals evolving? As a mom I should have grown a few extra arms by now.
I am not as faithful as you athiests. I took the easy way out and decided to believe in God. He is the sure thing. All your arguments are too risky for me to believe.
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Wow!
By mbeck - 01/14/2009 - 8:02 amGo away for a day and look what happens!
I just have a couple of comments.
1) My contention is that we are NOT a Christian nation as many have stated. MOST people are Christians, but since separation of church and state is a reality, then we cannot call ourselves a Christian nation.
2) In that same vein. The founding fathers were not ALL Christians. Many were Deists, and very much wanted religion to be separate from law.
3) I ask this...............why do denominations of Christian denominations not have a consensus on issues? How can Evangelicals, or Baptist, or Catholics, or Episcopalians say THEY have the "correct" Bible and interpretation of it? THAT'S why we, as a nation, need to be inclusive to ALL religions and be tolerant of others not like you. Hate and bigotry are nasty and right now, this country needs to come together.
Ajax - very nice posts
Chimp- over the top, but funny.
Norman - funny also, but in a sad way
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Nice job, um, "guys"...
By Chimp Refuge - 01/13/2009 - 11:59 pmLet's see, at 8:40 p.m., Stormin' Norman sounds off with another incoherent and plaintive burst of nothing at all. Five, six, and seven minutes later, one-line posts by "Anonymous" supporting Norman appear. There's no question that these "got-yer-back" posts were by the same person; the only question is whether Norman is the one egging himself on. Nuts often do this, and Norman may have tipped his hand when clamoring for people to register usernames (you know, the whole "doth protest to much" thing).
This is why the Monitor should indeed require registration in order for people to comment. Pick a gag name if you want, but be limited to one name. It's bad enough that the homobigots for Jaysus here can only dispatch posts in some bastardized version of substandard English; having the integrity of comment threads destroyed by vigorously inane cowards is especially bad.
Know what my concept of God is? An acne-ravaged, gibbering lunatic in an adult diaper who spends his days surfing granny porn, hanging out in Christian chat rooms posing as a believer, and giggling over the fact that people are stupid and scared enough to believe that He cares. If God existed I'd level him with a single hatchet kick to the face, for He is clearly a Pansy.
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Perspective Matters....As Does Euclidean 4-Dimensional Space....
By Cruijff 14 Ajax - 01/13/2009 - 11:07 pmAs well, like every proud parent of a child (and by virtue of the values and genetic attributes instilled in said child by the biological/adoptive and nuturing parents) that aspires and excels in a given art, academic achievement or sporting event by proudly proclaiming "that's my child" in recognition of their achievement, do you not think that a Supreme Being (especially one with an ego) would boastfully and admirably with pride do the same in recognition of its prototype genus/species excelling and masterfully, independently and efficiently prevailing in a given endeavor, in this case, surviving, prospering and viably propagating successfully by means of the attributes instilled in them by the creator (rather than suppressing said evolutionary skills)? As such, that would constitute a success on all fronts, by all participants, and on a universal level, that would constitute a green light for an evolutionary go ahead....but that is your perspective to rationalize, and in any case, like any belief system, it is personal....do not condemn other sthat may not share your perspective....Live and Let Live....
As well, there is perhaps a highly viable and scientific explanation of what we perceive to be a limitless, boundless universe, and it all derives from perception, or more accurately, lack thereof, and framed in the context of Euclidean space/4-dimensional space, a fourth spatial dimension (although this dimensionality is not limited to only four and corresponds with a fourth dimensional axis of "w"). An example of this is a tesseract, a four-dimensional hypercube (4-cube), and which is viewed/perceived via perspective projections and is bounded by 3-dimensional volumes (8 cubes) whereas a 3-dimensional cube is bounded by two-dimensional surfaces (6 surfaces). The point here is that when viewed via a given perspective, and when shadows are cast upon a 4-dimensional object in a fourth dimension (resulting in a 3-dimensional shadow) the bounding volumes become apparent. Simply put, a 3-dimensional shadow of a tesseract revolving around a plane in 4-dimensional space gives the appearance of a perpetually morphing/deforming and pepetuating 4-dimensional object (ad infinitum?), and at any given perspective, there are planes/bounding volumes that are obscured by others, which thereby illustrate the concept that because we only see in two dimensions, the other planes/boundaries are obscured, yet still exist. This is but one possible example of what could be a tangible, scientific and valid explanation of perceptive properties relative to those things that we cannot readily visualize, and is but a mere starting point relative to dimensionality and it relationship to our universe, and more precisely, to our very existence....We only comprehend that for which we tangibly have yet created physical laws and rules for....Perspective matters....especially in how one chooses to utilize it....we are here on earth and we are here now....endeavor to make the most of it....make a positive difference....
....Live and Let Live....
"The purpose of life is not to be happy. It is to be useful, to be honorable, to be compassionate, to have made some difference that you have lived and lived well." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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RE: the sadness by Anonymous
By Montana Mule - 01/13/2009 - 11:04 pm"...the homosexual movement. It causes too much pain and sorry....It makes me so sad for the damage it leaves in its wake. Too many broken hearts. Too many broken lives."
Really? The same sex couples I know from my work promoting equal marriage rights have been together for many years. Those with children are good parents of well-adjusted children. They just want their families to have the same basic rights as everyone else - insurance coverage, hospital visitation, retirement and death benefits, and yes, divorce law protections. One couple in my church have been together over 25 years. What a wonderful day of celebration for them and our congregation when on January 1, 2008 they pledged their love in their NH civil union ceremony. They are happy together (for many more years than I was in my legal, one man-one woman marriage), they are an integral and beloved part of our congregation, and I am proud to be a member of a church (Unitarian) who welcomes them for the good people they are.
Please don't come back with the pseudo-argument that they can't really be happy because you wouldn't be happy. I wouldn't be happy in a same-sex relationship either, because I'm straight. Perhaps there would be a lot LESS unhappiness amongst homosexuals if their families were recognized for what they are - no sadder, no more troubled and no happier than families headed by heterosexual couples. Perhaps homosexual teenagers wouldn't have near the emotional problems they are reported to have if there weren't so many people telling them they are evil or sinners or if they just prayed hard enough they could be "cured".
Again, thank you Bishop Robinson, for planning an inclusive prayer for the rest of us and for leading an inclusive church.
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Perspective Matters....
By Cruijff 14 Ajax - 01/13/2009 - 10:59 pmIt seems incomprehensible that, from the outer reaches of the cosmos (at least as far as we are able to perceive and comprehend anyway) and relative to the billions and billlions of stars and galaxies that apparently exist, that mankind is representative of the epitome of form and function this universe has the potential to evolve. In terms of geological/cosmological "time," we have evolved opposable thumbs, large craniums and are bipedal (not a sexual orientation), which over the course of the given timeframe, one would reasonably expect a more advanced design. The large cranium is especially puzzling in light of the fact that we use only a fraction (capacity and volume-wise) of that potential gray-matter. Furthermore, we still drive around in steel cages on mutiple tori powered by liquified fossilized remains, the effective implementation of personal computers is effectively only 20+ years old and we have an average life expectancy of (on average in developed countries) 80+/- years (which does not seem very long relative to the prodigiousness of our physical design)....perhaps we should perceive ourselves via a different perspective....
In the context of a Supreme Being (for the sake of this scenario) and in terms of our current existential state, it is perhaps again reasonable to suggest that perhaps we, as a genus/species, are an early stage prototype, a beta version of a future homosapien conceptualized design, and therefore not the be-all and end-all form of intelligent life in the universe, but a relatively primal form....
Futhermore, bearing that in mind, I am very surprised that no-one has brought into the discussion the concept of free-will in its relationship with a creator (as it is very integral here to the point which I am trying to frame). In all seriousness, why would a creator endow mankind with free-will if it was not expected, and not condoned, to be used to its fullest extent, much like that of our own human brains (excess in the form of unused overhead creates "drag," slows inertia and taxes resources and thereby constitutes inefficient design, excepting of course a marginal excess for redundancy and safety factored in). Perhaps the Supreme Being has created earth as a beta testing ground as well (our own homosapien Thunderdome/Galapagos) to empirically observe and document our progress as a genus/species in a natural selection/survival of the fittest scenario in an ever-degrading, petri dish environment on earth, each day with less and less readily available natural resources on which to survive and thrive, as a viable mechanism to further distill the species and its genetic pedigree....
Again, for the sake of this discussion, let's change our perspective for a moment....perhaps the institution of the free-will attribute was the paradoxical attribute that was overlooked by being underutilized by certain homosapiens (and much to their disadvantage), that is, the creator was watching to see whom would actually utilize this escape clause of sorts and fulfill its potential by actually thinking outside the box, fully and effectively utilizing all its available resources (intellectually and otherwise) and therefore becoming the dominant strain(s) of the genus/species, thereby further insuring/assuring its survival and passing the so-called litmus test instituted by the creator for identifying the dominant strain....survival of the fittest in a work smarter, not harder paradigm....with the non-dominant strain merely following orders, and from a proactive/mutagenic standpoint, becoming static and non-progressive in a forward moving environment, thereby slowing the inertia of an evolving dominant strain, and thereby progress on a positive plane....In this, via a very pragmatic and objective perspective, mankind, via this scenario, could and should perhaps be evolving the attributes of that which, from whatever source you believe they may or may not be derived/evolved from, we have developed in order to fully exploit their potential and prosper, thereby becoming fully independent and highly viable as a genus/species....think different....iconoclastic does not necessarily embody a negative value, especially when it serves and benefits the equality of all mankind....and therefore humanity....be a humanitarian....and a pragmatist....evolve....and accept those whom, by a differing perspective, believe in the concept of "what is, is" and endeavor to, via real world means, accept our mortality in the scope of the universe, endeavor to achieve and experience that which can be had in the given timeframe in our current state of matter and, most importantly, to be as humanistic as possible and leave this earth, in light of our legacy here on earth, a better place than when we came into it....but above all else, treat all others as equals, as that is perhaps quantifiably and qualitatively our one true measure as intellectual and logical beings as respective members of the human race....
....Live and Let Live...
"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children....to leave the world a better place....to know even one life has breathed easier because we have lived. This is to have succeeded." - Ralph Waldo Emerson....
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Chimp
By Anonymous - 01/13/2009 - 9:01 pmYou are hilarious! I've never laughed so hard.
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